Inside The Decision to Shutter Moven’s B2C Business with Brett King
Today, we’re joined by Brett King, founder and CEO of Moven, one of the original digital banks, and Lex Sokolin, Global Head of Fintech at ConsenSys.
Lex and I discussed Moven’s recent announcement to shutter its B2C business on episode 170 of Rebank, and we're happy to have the opportunity to connect with Brett directly to discuss the decision in more detail.
Of particular interest in this conversation are Brett's learnings from ten years of running Moven about B2C vs B2B as a digital banking strategy, the missing pieces in the current US and European challenger banking business model and where the space will go from here.
For all of our past episodes, and to sign up to our newsletter, please visit www.rebank.cc.
Thank you very much for joining us today. Please welcome, Brett King and Lex Sokolin.
Full transcript:
Will Beeson:
Brett King, welcome to Rebank.
Brett King:
It's good to be back.
Will Beeson:
It is. It is. It's good to connect. I think this is probably the third time that we're connecting on Rebank.
Brett King:
Sounds right. Yeah.
Will Beeson:
And once on Breaking Banks, I think.
Brett King:
I've got to catch up, too. I've got to bring you back into Breaking Banks.
Will Beeson:
We'll do it. There's a lot to talk about these days.
Brett King:
We should do a joint podcast. We should do like a special for our listeners, like a combined Rebank/Breaking Banks, that would be interesting.
Will Beeson:
That'd be fine. That'd be fine.
Brett King:
Let's do it.
Will Beeson:
We've also got Lex Sokolin who is very near and dear to us at Rebank, and as I'm in the habit telling people one of the smartest people I know. So glad to have him involved, also. I'm sure we can draw it out a little bit as we go, but I think Lex will add an interesting angle to this conversation. So Brett, I wanted to pick up apart from just making up the lost time, but you at Moven have had some interesting developments recently, specifically announcing that you're going to wind down the B2C business. So interesting subject matter to dive into. I think it'll be clear as we go that this is actually a great move for you guys, but maybe in your own words you could recap for us what's been going on.
Brett King:
So we had decided to split the two businesses, the direct-to-consumer business and the enterprise business, about a year ago, and we had raised some initial interest in funding or relaunch of the direct-to-consumer business. The reasons for this were fairly evident, but if you look at investor thesis, at the VCs we're engaged with and the private equity firms who we're engaged with, they either had a thesis of investing in consumer, high growth consumer, fintechs or in enterprise fintechs, you don't get VCs generally that want to invest in a hybrid. So despite all of the talk that we hear about being interested in different business models and so forth, the investment thesis really it was split along those two lines.
Brett King:
So the longer we stayed as one company or one entity, we had limited options in terms of continuing to raise money because, if you go to enterprise, guys they went interest in the DTC metrics, direct to consumer metrics, and vice versa. So we made the decision to split off the DTC business raised some funding separately for that and deal with them as two separate companies with some common IP. Essentially, our consumer business would have been an enterprise client for us.
Will Beeson:
Quick context for everyone who missed the first couple times we connected, Moven was founded in, what, it was like 2008, 9, some [crosstalk 00:04:40]
Brett King:
Yeah. Well it was August, 2010, was when we registered the domain Moven Bank. Back in August, I think it was August 8th, 2010, and then by November we were starting to put the team together. The company was officially formed in our first seed round or our friends and family round was completed by April, 2011.
Will Beeson:
So that's, I think, actually when I first met you, either it was 2010 or the summer of 2011. During those venture pitches and hearing the vision for the digital bank and the gamified bank and lots of interesting concepts that were really ahead of their time. And, at the time I was building robo, a B2C robo-advisor from scratch. And in 2010, none of these words existed. Challenger bank, neobank, fintech, robo-advisor. This was all just, "Hey, you failed out of a career on Wall Street and you're doing something weird. What's wrong with you?"
Will Beeson:
So I guess my question is, so the earlier point you had of enterprise VCs and direct to consumer VCs not understanding the hybrid bed, when do you think it all started to click, like these themes and your ability to tell the story? When do you think, people really started to grok what these things meant?
Brett King:
Yeah. That's a good point. And that's actually a pretty important storyline in respect to why we met at up, in the place we were. 2010 was very, very early in the challenge of bank process. We were clearly the first mobile focused challenger globally. At the time you had bank Simple around, you had Feeder in Germany. But that was pretty much it. There wasn't really much in the way of challenger banks, certainly none that focused on a mobile first operation. So, we did a bunch of firsts associated with that.
Brett King:
So we had the first online account opening within an app for a bank account, anywhere in the world. We had the first real time receding experience, which we built. We deployed the first contactless capability even prior to Google Wallet and Apple Pay. We have these contactless stickers, you could stick on the back of your phone. We use the home page space of the mobile app very differently for the first time and created the design pattern that you can see today. And in 26 months I was styling using the home page to communicate more about people's relationship with their money.
Brett King:
All of those were things that we pioneered in those early days, well before any of the other mobile based challengers had emerged. And so, it was a very exciting time. You may also remember, we didn't actually launch with the bank account. We launched with something called credit score. Do you guys remember that?
Will Beeson:
It was before my time.
Brett King:
Yes, it was very, very early.
Will Beeson:
Yeah, I remember the gamification aspect is the one thing that stood out and that really appealed to me because one of the things that Mary Meeker articulated really well in her 2017 deck and just stuck with me is that, all the interfaces that you see today in fintech and banking are video game interfaces from the 80s. They look like it. They feel that way. They have the score, they have the number, they have the charts. If you look at Robin hood, it's literally like space invaders. So I think that was definitely ahead of the time.
Brett King:
So we had by 2014, we had a quarter of a million customers and things were looking pretty good in terms of the growth, but we just couldn't raise money for the challenger bank back in those days. There was a little bit of money around, but 2013, 2014 people were still asking the question, where the challenger banks were going to make it, whether it was real and it was really tough to raise. So we started to get inquiries from banks that had seen what we'd done. We're very interested in our design approach from a user interface perspective and we're asking to license our tech. Now, we resisted that, but essentially by 2015, we were having to take those deals, late 2014, early 2015 for purely revenue purposes just to keep the business funded and keep it going.
Brett King:
So the first major deal we did was with TD Bank in Canada and then Westpac out in New Zealand. These were the first couple of deals and that took us in this different direction where we're now having to support enterprise software clients as well as build a direct to consumer business. But to give you guys a bit of a rough idea, if you look at the series C for Monzo, which was 19.5 million back in February, 2017. And, in 26 a series B, which was June, 2016 for both of those guys in terms of their raise, we had more customers than they had when they raise those amounts, but we couldn't do raises of that sort back in 2014. It was no one willing to fund-
Will Beeson:
Because the market wasn't there.
Brett King:
Yeah. And so, pragmatically we went after the enterprise business and for a small team of, at the time, I guess we probably had about 35, 40 employees. For that size of a company to be taking on now an enterprise business, supporting major banks, as well as trying to do DTC, we probably bit off more than we could chew, but pragmatically we went after the revenue.
Will Beeson:
In terms of the stack, like the infrastructure partners that you were working with. Can you just describe how you, I guess, got into offering FDAC insured accounts and then, how, if at all, those partnerships have evolved over time?
Brett King:
It's actually really interesting story. We started off with Bancorp and a processor called TxVia, I don't know whether you guys remember them, but, this was built by the same guys behind Money20/20 and Neil and Jonathan, TxVia, they were going to be our payment process because we wanted a realtime processor. A core component of our gamification design was this real time feedback loop at the point of sale, when you tapped your phone, you've got this receipt experience and it changed your spending behavior, through messaging.
Brett King:
And some psychological behavioral research that went into that as well. So TxVia and Bancorp were our first partners, but TxVia was acquired like about six weeks out from our launch, TxVia was acquired by Google and Google shut us down because at that point we we went live. Because they saw us as a competitor. And so, then with no payment processor, Bancorp was like, "Well, you guys don't have a payment processor so we can't exactly help you." So, by the time we've got a new payment processor, which was FIS, Bancorp was inundated with, both the Google Wallet and PayPal debit card at the time.
Brett King:
And they were distracted by that and they weren't really as enthused as they were earlier. So we partnered then with CBW Bank, out of Kansas here. CBW is run by Geico. So [inaudible 00:12:19]. Suresh was an ex-Google [inaudible 00:12:23], bought a bank for this very reason, so they became our core banking partner. But of course we ran the entire front end of the bank. So we did all the customer support. We onboarded customers, we had our own bin from MasterCard. So we ran the entire front end of the bank, but with FIS as our processor and CBW at the back end. And frankly, after we knocked off the rough edges, in the first 12 months, 18 months, that relationship worked very well in up until today.
Will Beeson:
So if you fast forward from the 2010, founding to now 2020, are you more bullish on the B2C digital bank model or the B2B model?
Brett King:
Let me answer it in two ways. First of all, I'm very bullish on the enterprise model because obviously that's how we've pivoted and from a profitability and revenue perspective, that's clearly where we have been making most of our money over the last few years. And where we see the biggest growth opportunities, even now within coronavirus, with the coronavirus thing, the push to digitization, the need to engage customers with more than just self service capabilities. All of that is changing right now. There's huge opportunities there.
Brett King:
But, when I look back at the early days of moving on the direct to consumer side, I was very idealistic. I wanted to change the world of banking and to redefine the bank account in terms of what your expectations of it were. And, when I would go to pitch, and I don't know if this was part of the pitch I made to you, Lex, but we would talk about being the Facebook of banking back in 2010 and so forth.
Brett King:
It was very rough and roll back in those days. But, I think the intent to change the way people thought about their money, the way they experienced the utility of banking in their daily life, I think that's still a very admirable intent. And, so for us that is actually wrapped up in our decision because ultimately, how many lives could we influence with Moven, even if we were successful in the US and launched it in the U and things like that, maybe, 20 million customers. But, right now today with Moven being on a distributed basis, trying to get our tech into as many banks as possible, as many handsets as possible, we've already got about 50 million users of the platform globally, on a distributed basis.
Brett King:
And so we feel like that's a better way to influence global financial wellness and core expectations around what a bank account should provide for you. Ultimately we feel like we can do more on the enterprise side. And from a purely business perspective, we get a lot more return out of investment in that side of the business right now.
Will Beeson:
There's an interesting piece of advice in there, which is, don't listen to VCs about what your business strategy should be.
Brett King:
Yeah.
Will Beeson:
Basically at no point of time other than as a sanity check of where the market is, but not about where the market should be. The 2020 fintech B2C world is so drastically different from what was there a decade ago with these vertical fintech champions levered up, a billion dollars of funding careening on issues around customer profitability. But the path to getting there, and I think a lot about why digital wealth, why investing worked as a theme in the US and neobanks didn't. And then why that flipped. And I moved to London about four years ago, three years ago, and it all clicked for me where nobody in Europe really cares that much about Nutmeg or Digital Wealth because they've got pensions and a much more conservative investment atmosphere.
Will Beeson:
But for banking, the problem set is very different than Americans. In particular, if I go from London to Paris and I swipe my card, I have to pay 6% bank tax on every sandwich I buy in terms of the effects fees and people travel because it's all so close. And so I felt like there was a real killer use case. It was a reason why somebody would download Revolut because it's not just a better interface, but they would save money immediately getting the app. And in the US, just the culture didn't necessarily support that use case.
Will Beeson:
And it took a while for folks like Chime and Moneylion to start embedding credit in a very integrated way and find the American use case. And, I'd love to hear your views on, was there something missing from the American consumer that made it easier to do neobanking in the UK and in Europe?
Brett King:
Yeah, I think that's a pretty interesting point. I think in the US, you did need regulatory support, you still need better regulatory support in the US. Like we just heard yesterday, Monzo applying for a banking license in the US and that process is going to take them two and a half to three years compared with the process of getting a fintech banking license in the UK, it's radically different. So the regulatory environment is very different. But in terms of the systems in the US, you still have dramatic dependence and you have underlying systems that restrict your ability to really change the dynamic on banking. So you don't have real time money transfer, unless you're using a startup like PayPal or Venmo.
Brett King:
You have an ACH system that can take you five days to get money from one bank to another. It's literally faster for me to write myself a check from one bank account and do a remote deposit capture, using a camera from another bank account to transfer money than it is to send it electronically from one bank to another. And you've got these embedded behaviors in the US around checks and cash and so forth, sticky behavior that requires large institutional momentum to change. And the existing players were very resistant to that even back in 2016. NACHO who is the National Association that runs the ACH business in the US, the bank to bank payments network. Even back then, the big banks were stopping their chair from adopting real time payments mandates.
Brett King:
So it wasn't until the FED put that in place just last year and now they're talking about a 2024 implementation. So, some of the plumbing in the US just doesn't allow you to be as inventive as you could have been in the UK or European Union either. So I think there's a little bit of that reinforcing the incumbent behavior in the US system that's hard to break. But also combine that with the regulatory environment and the fact that when you're going to investors in the US you've got to have the big numbers to be able to raise the money you need to grow challenges, but you need to get that growth first.
Brett King:
And that growth just requires a lot of money and focus on marketing and acquisition in the earliest stages. So if you don't raise enough capital in the early stages in the US, you'll never get to that critical mass because those other things in the system are holding you back a little bit. That's probably my thesis.
Will Beeson:
So, apart from that extra billion dollars raised across a few rounds for Moven's B2C business, what else could have contributed to a faster scaling, a more economically viable B2C bank. And I asked this not necessarily to focus on Moven, but to extrapolate your wisdom as we think about other banks in the market.
Brett King:
Well, ultimately as I pointed out, in 26's raise and Monzo's raise, the biggest point was timing. We were just too early. If we had started Moven in 2013, we would be, the biggest challenger in the US I think, because of the funding cycle. It was a timing issue. We were just three years too early on the cycle. We were always under funded for the direct to consumer business in those early days. And I'm not using that as an excuse, but that was just a maturity of the market. What could we have done differently? Look, I think if we had decided to split the business earlier, if we thought a little differently about the tech stack in terms of the way we built it and we'd built it out initially with a bit more flexibility, in setting to have to rebuild our tech stack halfway through to cater for the growth in enterprise.
Brett King:
Because the first enterprise solutions we did were just taking Move's direct to consumer thing in copying the components we needed for enterprise clients. Whereas now we have obviously have full API [inaudible 00:22:51] SDK. We've developed out the stack to make app stack to make our enterprise business more flexible. So if we'd had some flexibility in the tech stack, it would have required less investment in enterprise. We could have continued to work on DTC that might've helped, but ultimately we were just too early.
Will Beeson:
From a product standpoint, maybe we switch gears and think about today specifically rather than 2010, 12, 14, whenever it may have been. But based on where we are now, like real time notifications, free checking and debit, is that plus a multibillion dollar marketing budget enough to a mass 10 million plus users or do you need to fundamentally be innovating around lending or around genuinely creating new products, bringing in investments in ways that create a more comprehensive offering. Where are we now and what needs to change in order for Chime to become Chase?
Brett King:
Right. So, the next phase of this comes around what you'll hear often referred to as embedded banking. And so, the real change here, mobile started us on this route and part of the reason that the explosion in challenger banks didn't occur back in the nineties when the internet arrived is, first of all, you couldn't really differentiate that well, in terms of internet experience versus a traditional bank primarily because the technology just wasn't there. But also there were design constraints. Obviously mobile changed the rules because mobile gave you contextuality, it gave you the ability to do stuff on the move on your phone. So there were design things you could do that you would never have done in a branch based bank morphing to the internet.
Brett King:
So mobile gave us ways to design banking very differently. But the next phase of this is when we start talking about personal AI. So the development of Siri, Alexa, big speed, these technologies that will give us more engagement with our money via voice. And then of course augmented reality, through smart glasses and so forth. So over the next decade, you're going to see a lot more design focus on the way a bank account can abet itself in your life and adapt to your needs, very intelligently. So this is the era of the smart bank account and there's still massive ability to differentiate that day to day banking experience by surfacing the utility in predictive ways based on context like geolocation or some behavioral trigger that you admit [crosstalk 00:25:57]
Will Beeson:
Are there tangible examples of what that looks like in the consumer's life?
Brett King:
One that we've got, for example, built into our enterprise stack, and we never had the chance to deploy it in the direct to consumer business is contextual credit. And so there's two examples that I give you. One is that, when we get people to save money within the Moven sphere, we don't use a budgeting methodology. We use a psychological behavioral model. And so we talk about velocity savings and trying to change the way people save. So instead of building different buckets, the envelope method, different buckets for different things you're saving for. We collect that, put that all together and show you all the stuff you're saving for and try to increase your overall velocity to build your savings pool.
Brett King:
So then you've got choices as to what you can do with your savings. So that's a psychological approach to money rather than the budgeting methodology, which isn't particularly successful anywhere in the world. Only about 15% of people are successfully able to save money using budgeting. So that piece, but now you've got a wishlist, all the stuff that you want to buy or you want to save for, we know. So now we can start to anticipate your need for credit based on your intent to buy.
Brett King:
So now, if you want to buy a bicycle or a new iPhone or N95 mask, we can anticipate that and start to bill for that. So, that intent to buy and how it connects with credit, that's a very important relationship because we can manage the trade off between using your savings for that or accessing credit and see that in the context of financial wellbeing. So that's fairly new approach. But I'll give you a really simple example. You walk into a Sainsbury's in the UK or a Tesco, you normally spend 400 pounds on your groceries. That's a lot, isn't it? Maybe say 300. And today we know that you've only got 150 pounds in your wallet or in your bank account.
Brett King:
So at that point, rather than waiting for you to fill up your cart, go to the checkout and be declined because you don't have enough balance. As you walk in the store, we can offer you credit and we can say, "Hey, it looks like you don't have enough money to complete your typical grocery spend today. We can give you an extra 150 pounds. This is the fee. It's $5 fixed fee if you pay it back with the next 30 days and your salary comes in five days. So you're good."
Brett King:
Now that circumstance credit card, you don't have to apply for a credit card. It's this instantaneous ability to solve the problem that you have in real time based on a number of data points. And so it's that way we think credit is moving and if you look at models like affirm, point of sale, financing, stuff like that, these are the early re evolutions of this contextual credit movement that's coming. So there are some pretty good examples on the credit side. Where I think for traditional banks they're going to find that much harder to make those moves than challenger would. If you think about going into a traditional bank, like an RBS or a Chase and pitching them on this idea, that's going to essentially eliminate the need for the credit card product. That's a hard sell.
Will Beeson:
You've covered a bunch of trends across embedded banking and banking platforms, and if you think about those trends coming together, and I'll throw in Google and Apple into those and financial just to boil the pot fully. You can tell this as a leading rhetorical question, to me, those are winner take all markets. Is there room for the long tail of banks that we have in the US the 10,000 credit unions and small banks? Or is it just Plat and Visa that own all of that?
Brett King:
Yeah. Look, I got into some trouble in Australia recently when I was down there before the coronavirus obviously where I told them that if they didn't really seriously change the way they thought about payments and the wallet and the experience around that, that they would all be using Chinese mobile wallets by the end of the decade, 2030. And that was a pretty controversial statement, got reported in the daily press the next day. Because, obviously if you look at where we are in the scheme of the evolution of the way we pay, China is well ahead of the West right now. 2019, and financial Ally Pay and Tencent Wechat Pay did $31 trillion in mobile payments in China alone.
Brett King:
The entire plastic card market in the world, including Apple pay implementations and Samsung pay implementations of digit tokenized plastic cards was 23 trillion. Like almost two thirds the size of the Chinese market. As these guys start getting into Asia there could be this global movement around, the mobile wallet. But ultimately I think your day to day spending account primarily is going to be an artifact in the cloud surfaced on your phone that you can get access to when you're transacting on e-commerce using voice or on your other devices.
Brett King:
What we think about as our main bank account, that's going to change. We're going to have this mobile wallet embedded in our world. That's our primary spending source when we're going out to do that, we may have different apps for finances, not in the respect of mobile apps, but in terms of core functionality for, now maybe investing or getting access to credit, like a smart credit advisor or a smart investment advisor, the money coach built into our world, but, for most of the world by the end of this decade, their primary bank account will be a mobile wallet of some sort, a mobile purse that stores their basic day to day spending. Now that could be fed from a more traditional bank account.
Brett King:
But for many people, they won't need a traditional bank account, in the sense of just somewhere to store their money and be able to pay at a store or online. And so, what we think of as a bank account, I think is changing.
Will Beeson:
Lex, what parallels are there in Brett's experience to two years at the B2C robo-advisor that you started early on and eventually pivoted to B2B?
Lex Sokolin:
Brent, maybe, I don't know the extent to which you've been watching the investment space, but, for me as an entrepreneur in the digital wealth space, I had my aha moment in 2016 and looked around and said, "Everything's the same." The problems that people face and how they're building companies and how the themes and the vectors converge are all very similar. And so, just for context, I started a B2C robo-advisor in 2009, 2010, so about two years later, after betterment and John Stein also started out of Columbia, and I started building my company in New York. The B2C play in digital wealth, you talk about banking and savings, at least with banking and savings, you can pitch for a small amount of money and it's transactional. And there are many more retail customers.
Lex Sokolin:
With Digital Wealth your pitch is, "Give me all your money and 40 years later I'll give you $20 million. But, I'm a startup and you don't know who I am and let's do it on the internet." And so, the proposition, the value versus the ask is very asymmetric. And that's a very hard thing for young companies, to step over, especially when the word fintech and robo-advisor doesn't exist. And so for about three years, we tried building the B2C approach and it was very slow going. But simultaneously, maybe what happened much earlier and we had set up an RIA and we were working with custodians is, as we were working with custodians like TD, Fidelity and the equivalent of the PHI Serves, the pent up demand on the independent side just became very, very obvious.
Lex Sokolin:
So the independence of which there's about 6,000 registered investment advisors relative to the 10,000 banks and credit unions, the independence, were very interested in private labeling the technology. And there was a moment in 2013 when the enterprise positioning the private label, an instance of a robo-advisor for your business just hit the vein and the media, it became the thing that people wanted. And I had more incoming prospects for that in the first month of 2013. Than me pitching the three years back, it was just really a title shift. And I think 2013 to 2016 for Digital Wealth as a hybrid approach or as a B2B2C approach really went into the mainstream. As BlackRock bought Future Advisor and LearnVest was bought by Northwestern Mutual, and Jemstep was bought by Invesco. [crosstalk 00:36:00] advisor engine was funded by WisdomTree.
Lex Sokolin:
So this rush in people's imagination and I think that's very symmetric with what happened in banking. It's symmetric with what's happening and in lending with OnDeck and Cabbage and so on. And I think it's how you build the business. But deep in there, I do have this dissatisfaction of it does [crosstalk 00:36:31]
Brett King:
It hasn't been as revolutionary as possible. Yeah, I get what you're saying.
Lex Sokolin:
Today, I don't see much difference between Revolut and Robin hood to be honest. I think it's just customer audiences being pitched lowest cost products. When I look at that stuff, it just feels so transactional and marginal and I don't buy the Amazon of banking story that's being pitched. I think there's a missing piece in terms of how the financial product is manufactured. And obviously for me the next interesting thing is decentralized finance. And, that's where I'm focused on most of my time.
Brett King:
I think there's a parallel for us as well. Because our direct to consumer experience building a challenger bank made it so much more credible for us to go and sell that capability on the enterprise side. Because people would say, "Well, we can see you've run a consumer business. We can see you understand the day to day issues of running a bank. But, you did it differently." We treated the consumer business like a lab for enterprise in terms of product development and ideation. And so, I think when we were going out pitching to new banks and clients, that pedigree was very useful for us.
Will Beeson:
So Lex pointed to this almost turning point moment within the investments world where things went from, this B2C exploration by new fintech startups to very rapid industry adoption. So it was like a quick shift where suddenly everything went enterprise and all the big players got involved. And actually we've seen tons of work at the Schwabs and the Vanguards and the BlackRocks of like a lot of these, what were initially like fintech concepts around robo-advice and pricing models and really taking on board a lot of the early innovation. We haven't seen that in banking. We've seen some better apps, but fundamentally like not the level of digital innovation on the incumbent side, that Lexus referenced in the investments world. And so I guess, my question then coming out of that, as you pivot to focus exclusively on the B2B side, is that turning point going to come in income of banking? Like how big is thee enterprise opportunity for you guys?
Brett King:
Because we had a direct to consumer business here, it really limited our options in terms of exposure into the US market. So, now that we have announced we're winding down the DTC and the customers are moving out of our money who borrows become an enterprise client of ours. And now that we've started articulating in the market, we've had a flood of inquiries from major players who said, "We would never have considered working with you before as an on an enterprise relationship because you were DTC." Once we were prepared to make that pivot, then the market has clearly been more amenable to our solution than previously when we were more perceived as potential competitor.
Will Beeson:
Any parting words from anyone before we wrap up?
Brett King:
Despite everything? I've had a wonderful time with it all and for us, this move to enterprise, it was a very difficult move for me because when I started Moven, I wanted to change the way people thought about their bank account. I saw that as me building the next big digital bank. And so it took me a while to really come to the realization that this pivot was the right move for the company, the investors, and for our ability to make meaningful change more broadly. But, it was a tough decision for me to separate myself from DTC. I think primarily because, we started this and our brand globally was built as being that first mobile challenger. And I felt like we might be losing part of our core sense of being by dropping the consumer business, but I'm not as fearful of that now is probably all in my head and it was. But, coming out of it, I wouldn't change anything. I've had an amazing experience.
Will Beeson:
Yeah. Well look, tremendous and very tangible contribution to the evolution of the space, both through Moven and also through all the other thinking and writing and speaking that you do. So, I'm sure that will continue and perhaps even at greater scale now as you focus on enterprise. Brett King.
Brett King:
Thank you.
Will Beeson:
And Lex, thank you very much for joining us today.
Lex Sokolin:
Take care.
